As part of the 11th Annual Global Accessibility Awareness Day (GAAD), we interview Phil Yatvin and Ben Chargot of The Chicago Lighthouse about accessibility, impact and the rewards of purpose-driven projects.

Accessibility 101:
Phil Yatvin & Ben Chargot of The Chicago Lighthouse


[Juan:] Hi, my name is Juan Olarte. And I would like to welcome you to digital accessibility one on one. Today I would like to introduce you to Phil Yatvin, Senior Director of Business Development. And Ben Chargot, Project Coordinator of Digital Accessible Experience or DAX Consulting of the Chicago Lighthouse, an organization with over 100 years of experience serving patients, clients, and employees with visual loss. Both Phil and Ben will be doing a presentation in our Global Accessibility Awareness Day about why utilizing users with disabilities creates better digital experiences. The event will be on May 19, 2022, from 10am to 2pm, Eastern Standard Time, and the link is going to be down in the description. Phil and Ben, welcome, and we’re so happy to have you as our presenters. So, can you please tell us a bit more about you? 

[Ben:] Sure, thank you for introducing us, Juan. As Juan said, my name is Phil Yatvin and I’m Senior Director of Business Development at the Chicago Lighthouse. The Chicago Lighthouse is 115-year-old social service organization located in the heart of Chicago’s medical district, we provide about 40 different programs and services that empower individuals who are blind, visually impaired, disabled, and veterans. We do this for about six main categories: education, employment, low vision, rehabilitation, assistive technology, independent living, and social enterprise. Our social enterprises are a very unique combination of mission and business where we create career pathways for professionals of our mission in revenue generating businesses that help us fund all of our social services, such as our children’s development center or low vision clinics. We have a range of social enterprises that include an assembly plant that makes wall clocks, a call center service line that does medical scheduling, as well as business operations. And then we also have DAX or Digital Accessible Experience consulting, which helps partners create digital properties, that is websites, mobile apps, and platforms. I’ll hand it over to you, Ben. 

DAX or Digital Accessible Experience

[Ben:] All right, thanks, Phil, and thanks, Juan, for introducing us. Great to be here. So, I will elaborate a little more on DAX. So, as Phil said, it is the digital accessibility experience consulting. Basically, what we do is with for our partners, we do a combination of manual and, and usability testing on their online platforms to make sure that they are accessible, not only to screen reader users, and people with low vision, but also people who may have limited mobility, and only use a keyboard for navigation. People with, with cognitive impairments, making sure the language of the site is, isn’t unnecessarily complicated, and easy for everyone to understand. We check a lot of things like contrast, zoom functions for people who are low vision, and a lot of what we do is testing for screen reader functionality as well. I am a native JAWS user, that’s one of the screen readers that we test for and that I use to perform my daily functions. I have used JAWS for probably 20 years now, and its a, its a part of my daily life. It’s a part of all our other testers that are also native screen reader users, and they use that in their jobs as well and to perform life tasks and anything like that. So, they’re, they’re very comfortable with it, and know how it operates, and by doing that, we kind of have, we have an edge on the testing that you don’t see from, from automated testing, that you would only really get from usability testing from actual users of the products. So, DAX is not as old as the organization itself. We’ve only been operating for a few years now, but we’re seeing some major growth and the accessibility is on web platforms is just continuingly, continuing to be taken more seriously and examined from a lot of different angles. So, we only see that expanding in the future. 

Why It’s Important to Have Accessible and User Friendly Digital Spaces?

[Juan:] Excellent Ben. Thank you so much. And, and thank you so much for that, great description, description of DAX. So Ben, if I can ask you something else, why it’s important to have accessible and user friendly digital spaces? 

 [Ben:] Well, you know, again, there are a lot of angles to that, the most important, I guess, and the most obvious would be that it’s just the right thing to do. in the same sense that it’s just, you know, it’s just the right thing to do, to have a wheelchair ramp, in addition to stairs or an elevator available, you know, to move between floors of a building, having several ways to navigate a digital space or a website, comes from the same place as that, so that all users, can access all portions of it. And, you know, as you would be able to interact with a physical space, also being able to do that with digital spaces. And so there are, there are building codes that say, you know, there has to be a ramp here. There has to be a, you know, an automatic door here or something like that. And now we are seeing, um, that equivalent in digital accessibility criteria through WCAG the 2.0 and 2.1, um, criteria that have been published, as well as the 508 compliance from the ADA. So, just from a societal standpoint, you know, it’s, it’s the right thing to do, um, from a business standpoint, it means significantly more customers. It means, more traffic to your site. It means, you know, opening yourself up to a, a wider audience that may not have been accessible before, simply because they couldn’t use the platform, not because they’re not interested. Um, and then from a third angle, not having an accessible space could result in legal action. So avoiding that is also a major incentive. 

What is Digital Inclusion, and Why is it Important? 

[Juan:] Phil, I have a question for you. What is digital inclusion, and why is it important? 

[Phil:] So, accessibility that Ben was just talking about is actually just part of what digital inclusion is. DAX especially and most accessibility experts in the industry, see digital inclusion is having two separate sides to it. There’s accessibility and there’s usability. And while there’s some overlap, they are very different. Accessibility goes more with, um, compliance and, and standards. The WCAG section 508, um, the ADA, and, and obviously there are other standards across the globe, but accessibility is how, and the different ways that people with disabilities that use assistive technology could interact with the digital platform. Whereas usability is more of that there’s potential where some things can be accessible, but if the user experience is still pretty poor, you’re gonna lose customers or people are not going to be satisfied with that experience. So, digital inclusion is the umbrella that goes over both of them, and digital inclusion is important to understand, not just for users of assistive technology, but for users that don’t use assistive technology because it is inclusion that is the main word there. And organizations and companies, whether you’re trying to reach customers with disabilities, or whether you’re trying to employ great employees with disabilities, inclusion is the main word there. How do you create inclusive environments, whether that’s physical or digital, to make it so that people can collaborate better, be more productive, allow you to, as I said, reach more customers. Digital inclusion is so important these days. And we can see that there’s such a larger focus on it, and so much more research coming out and say, companies that are more inclusive, especially in the digital space, are seeing more returns on their investment into accessibility, usability, and overall digital inclusion. 

Accessible Products and Services

[Juan:] That’s great, Phil, thank you. Let me ask you something else right now, in the experience that you have with your clients, do you see the adoption of digital inclusion, as a checkpoint for them, or there’s something they really want to do to increase people with disability accessing their services or products? 

[Phil:] So, I would say Juan, our partners and clients are all over the place when it comes to digital inclusion. You know, as Ben mentioned earlier, there are your proactive partners, and there are your reactive partners. Reactive partners dealing with lawsuits typically are more focused on how to do checkboxes to make sure they don’t find another lawsuit. Then you have the more proactive partners that are looking at how to make digital inclusion and accessibility part of their overall strategies. How can they, it’s just like opera-, you know, HR or accounting? How can accessibility be layered in throughout the organization. And those are the companies that we’d love to work with, especially in what we call an inclusive design fashion. Because working hand in hand with our team of specialists that have disabilities, we’re able to bring greater awareness to accessibility best practices, demonstrate what real assistive tech users experience. We pass along that empathy that is really necessary for our partners to start to build digital inclusion into their own practices and processes. But I’m going to be honest with you, most are more on the reactive side or what are the simplest checkboxes that we can put in to make sure that we can reach some more customers, but others are so far above and beyond, and it’s not just how can we reach more customers, how can we hire more people, and those are the ones that have said that we really love working with because those will be, it’s becoming a competitive advantage in this space. And the better your organization could become at doing it internally or having a really good partner to help them do it, they’re seeing more advantages, especially on the business side and bottom line than others. 

Accessibility and Usability

[Juan:] Oh, great, thank you so much. I really like the word empathy, and I completely agree with that. Ben, let me just go back to you for a moment. In my experience, accessibility and usability are terms that overlap, you can have something that’s usable, but not accessible, and something accessible but not usable. However, some organizations see both disciplines as one. Can you tell us why it’s important to understand the difference between the two of them and how can they work together? 

[Ben:] Absolutely, thanks, Juan. So, to answer part of your question, first, it’s important to understand the difference between them, because you’re really looking at two different, they do overlap, absolutely. But you are looking at two different experiences there. As Phil said, accessibility is more the criteria and numbers side of things, whereas the user, whereas usability is, is more the human side of things. How, you know, how people actually interact with these things, you can see, you can see statistics all day long that say if a website is accessible or not, but in the end if the user experience is clunky, or if there are things that that don’t interact as expected, as they do, maybe with other elements that you interact with, with with a screen reader or other assistive tech, then it’s still not going to be a good user experience. So, the, the example I always use is, is with, with images and other non text elements, it’s become common practice to add alt text to those that is presented to screen reader users and such, you know, telling you what the image is, telling you what the element is, what the function of it is, and giving some, some relevant information. Accessibility, running like an accessibility scan, for instance, may come back as there is alt text there, and therefore it’s accessible. But if you’re actually testing it from the user side of things, the usability side and the user experience, you may discover that that alt text is a string of unintelligible HTML code, or it might say alt text, you know it, there’s really no telling. And so that’s why they’re both important to include together in projects to realize the difference, but also realize how they work together. Because, you know, doing one and not the other, you really might miss out on, you might either miss out on the criteria that could be met, to ensure that the space is more accessible. Or you could miss out on the user experience side of things where, you know, it’s where it’s technically accessible, but the user experience is not there. And either one is a step in the right direction. But really, when you put them both together, that’s where we can really come together in the digital inclusion. 

Misconceptions About Automated Tools

[Juan:] Excellent and I really like that answer. I really like your example as well, I’ve seen it many times where companies or people within organizations, they say a specific image, it needs to have an alternative text, so it’s accessible, but they don’t look at the context, is the image declarative or not, all they want to do is really have that checkmark to say, oh, it is accessible, you just don’t know how it’s going to be accessible. Or if it requires put it to be descriptive images image or something like that actually brings me to my next question, then. Because a lot of the times what they want to do is utilize automated tools to try to check that that por- that portion for accessibility, and perhaps that a tool like that you may say your, your specific image has alternative text, but it may not be what that requires to have. So, can you please tell me about a little bit on some of the misconceptions you find your clients to have in terms of automated tools? 

[Ben:] Absolutely, and that’s another great question. We do run into this particular one quite a lot. Because there are a lot of, there are a lot of automated accessibility scans and things companies that are marketing that where it’s kind of a, you know, an add on to your site, where you can kind of have it do and, it scans all the time, you know, so it’s always looking for, it’s looking for these new issues, and I can see why it would be very attractive to people, because it’s cheaper, usually. And it’s kind of like, it seems like it would be a guardian that’s there all the time, kind of constantly ensuring accessibility. And while that may be the case, for some issues that it discovers, kind of going back to the, the alt text that I mentioned before, something like that would not get picked up in an accessibility scan. Whereas it would come across as, as not an issue. But if you test it as a screen reader user, you’d realize that there is alt text there. But it isn’t associated at all with the image, or, you know, the text is, is unintelligible and also Juan, like you mentioned, the images that are decorative, it’s pretty common practice to just not even make those perceivable to assistive technology. Because there’s no real, there’s no reason to have extraneous navigation to even interact with those images. Because they’re, you know, they don’t really have a function, they’re not a link, they’re not a button, and they’re not a graphic that provides any relevant information. So, again, an accessibility scan would not realize that sort of thing. And on the flip side, it may, it would probably peg that as something that’s an accessibility issue with no alt text. Whereas if you’re testing it, as a user doing usability testing, you would realize that that is a purely decorative image. And that, you know, really the remediate remediation effort does not need to be put in to make it accessible, because it should really just be hidden from the assistive technology. And another thing that I would add, as a lot of the times those, the accessibility scanners and the automated testing, what they also do, is they create sort of a screen reader version for the site, you might see that on a lot of websites where it says, you know, click here for the accessible version, or using a screen reader click here, which is, it’s better than not having that option, certainly, but it is, it’s inherently discriminatory, having an option like that because what it does is, it’s basically you know, here’s the here’s their regular site. And then here’s the one that you as a screen reader user should use it. It divides us further, it, it makes it so you’re not sure if you’re getting the full content from that site. You’re not sure if you’re maybe using like a mobile version that doesn’t have all the functionality. And in the end, it’s just, it’s not a good practice to, to have a separate site for accessibility users. For all those reasons, it’s, it’s really better for everyone involved if accessibility and usability are built into, into the proprietary site. And it’s not only better for, for accessibility users, it really ends up better for everyone in the end, because, you know, if it’s if it’s more navigable by screen reader odds are, it’s also easier to navigate visually. If there are elements that, that that interact better with zooming functions, odds are, they’re easier to see anyway, even if you don’t need a zoom function. Odds are, it just makes the page more accessible and user friendly for everyone, not just accessibility users. And then if we can all use the same webpage at the same time. In that process, you know, why not? That is, that’s really the ideal situation, to not divide anybody, and to just have everyone be able to interact with the same space in the same way, and, and have it be usable for everyone. 

[Juan:] 100% agree with that, I completely understand not needing to have two separate websites. And sometimes organizations do want to go that way just to say, oh, we need to have something compliant, this is what we’re going to do versus actually, let’s try to integrate accessibility early on within development lifecycle. So, we can think of all the different users and their needs and ensure that we provide something accessible, and you touching on very specific point, and something that we like, is why we actually have to utilize manual testing, or people utilizing assistive technologies, not to solely rely on, on automated testing. And in my opinion, automated testing is only going to give you anywhere between 25 to 35% of all accessibility issues.  Can you, can you also tell me a little bit more in terms of the experience as to why it’s really important to ensure that automation is not the only way of actually doing testing, but you have to talk about or you have to look into the WCAG success criteria, but also ensuring that is relevant or usable by people with disabilities, in this case, what you guys do, and I think it’s fantastic. 

[Ben:] Well, thanks very much. We, you know, we, we tend to think it’s fantastic, too. And I absolutely agree that, that you do need to consider all of those platforms and testing and testing environments. We do, actually, you know, we do use automated testing to get kind of a baseline on these on these projects. Because it’s not, you know, it’s not, it’s not an evil tool, or anything like that. It just doesn’t cover all of the bases that you need to cover. But it still can be a tool in your toolbox, just not the only one. So, as you were saying, one, it’s a, it’s important to use all of these methods, because they all catch different things. So an automated test may catch contrast issues, or zooming functions or like a language of page maybe if the language of the page isn’t specified in the HTML markup, you may find that that is detected eas- more easily by an automated test than by user test where a very specific issue would be the only way of finding that during manual testing, but because the because the automated tests can scan all of the code from the site, every page, every function on every page, you know, oftentimes, that’s outside of the scope of manual testing. But running an automated test first, it gives our testers more of an idea of what they might need to focus on, certain workflows that are more important than others. Things that we might, that we might discover through the automated test that then we need to go back and more thoroughly, manually test for accessibility and usability. So again, that you know it’s, it’s still a good tool to have and to use and we use it ourselves. Then the manual testing with, with the WCAG criteria, that’s a different kind of important because it, it, it fosters understanding of the, of these criteria that were put in place for exactly that purpose, to be used as kind of a definite benchmark to test every site, every online platform against equally, you know, it’s a very, it’s, it’s a standardized set of rules and regulations. And honestly, that’s really, that’s the only way to make sure that we do have kind of standardized accessibility and know what’s expected out of each platform for each user is to have these, these criteria and kind of these set expectations, you know, because everybody’s idea of, and that moves me on to the third, which is, again, usability, everyone has their own idea of what makes it usable experience, everyone, it there are several different ways to interact through screen reader. There are several different interesting ways to interact If you’re a keyboard only user, or like a switch control user, for people with limited mobility. There are there are several different ways within those products to interact with them and to interact with the spaces with the digital spaces. So, then usability keeps, it, it keeps all of those in mind as well, the individual user experience. So, that’s why all three are important in their own right, but definitely have different have different levels that they should be tested on. I would add that several different environments also are important to include in the testing environment. What I mean by that is, to test say Jaws is a screen reader. NVDA is another very popular screen reader, you know, to test, say, JAWS, and Chrome as a browser, or NVDA and Firefox as a browser, there are several different combinations that we can use as different testing environments, and determining which of those are most used by accessibility users determining which one of which ones of those are meant to properly interact with the digital space. Those are other important determinations to make whether you want it tested on Mac or Chromebook with, with Chromefox. Those are other important determinations to make whether you want it tested on Mac. Mac with voice-over; that would be or even mobile testing, which we’ve done for a few platforms. Now if you want to test it on iOS, or Android really considering those testing environments too and what you think, or what the, you know, the owner of the digital space thinks would be the most viable platforms and the most used by their potential visitors. 

Design and Development Process. 

Juan:] Excellent, thank you so much. And then I just want to bring it back to Phil. Phil, if you can actually, let us know why it’s important to have users with disabilities be part of the design and development process. 

[Phil:] Sure, having users involved in the design and development process, something we like to call it, and most people do, inclusive design. Also, the concept, concept of shifting left is a critical strategy in accessibility and usability development. So, imagine you take the time to develop your whole website, and then you go get it tested? Well, if you don’t have your own internal team that has accessibility knowledge, you might be paying significantly more to have your entire site gone through what if there are a lot of accessibility compliance or usability issues found? Most likely both if you haven’t been considering Digital Inclusion during the development process, you’re spending a lot more time and money to then go create a compliant, usable, digital environment. When you build an accessibility and usability during the process, you save both time and money and your end product usually is much better when it comes to digital inclusion. And you can start with digital inclusion practices all the way at the wireframing level, you know, have someone in? Of course, not all wireframe software is are accessible to users with assistive technology. And that’s one of the areas we’re working on partnerships in. But you can have someone a designer walk-through a wireframe, say, well, we’re thinking about having some buttons here, or, you know, these are some different titles and headings we’re going to have. And our team then and digital or accessibility specialists can go through with your team and help you figure out okay, well make sure you note that this is the heading structure you should have if that’s the content you want to have, or well make sure that you’re naming those buttons or images or links the correct way. Or if you’re going to have a carousel there in your wireframe, definitely make sure you can pause it, you know, things like that, that go along with WCAG criteria you can take care of in the wireframe stage so, that when you’re developing it, there’s less time that will be taken in the first prototype or your MVP of then going and doing some manual testing, you’ll be saving time and energy, because inclusion is built in all along when organizations need to partner with organizations like ours, DAX, you know, building us in the inclusive design process also allows for, as I shared earlier, not only accessibility best practice, but also empathy to be learned from internal IT teams. And that empathy comes from seeing how real assistive technology users use technology to experience your web platform, or your mobile app, being able to experience this firsthand, will build that skill set into your internal IT team. So that as technology changes, which certainly happens these days, your team will be prepared to continue to iterate and build inclusion as you move forward to create, you know that way accessibility and digital inclusion becomes a sustainable strategy for your organization. That doesn’t happen if you wait after the cake is fully baked and try to do accessibility testing afterwards. 

[Juan:] 100% agree with that. So, many times organizations, something that early on development lifecycle, and they don’t really understand that, oh, by introducing accessibility at the testing level, they actually increase in either the money they’re going to have to spend in the project, or the timeframe for the delivery, especially if that specific website or project has some kind of legislative type of requirements. Thank you so much for that.

Accessibility Magic Wand


Okay, so I have a question for both of you. What will be the sorry, what will be your great accessibility wish, or if you had a magic wand, what would you do with it? 

[Phil:] Ben, do you want to go first? 

[Ben:] I mean, this takes a lot of thought. I mean if you have a ready-made answer, go for it, Phil. 

[Phil:] Sure, it’s so much. I’m somewhat new to digital inclusion, accessibility, I got into the space about two and a half years ago. A lot of that came from having coworkers who were screen reader users or screen mag users. But I have a lifetime experience of working with people with cognitive disabilities. So, I have some reference to making schoolwork and textbooks accessible and whatnot, but so much I think about my passion for the industry comes from that real firsthand live experience of seeing people I care for seeing coworkers struggle with inaccessible products. So, you know, my, my one biggest wish, in the accessibility space is just for, for everyone, if I could just have everyone have that awareness, have that empathy that is required to understand digital inclusion. It goes such a long way, you know, when we have first discovery meetings with potential partners, and we show them what their website is experienced like through someone who uses a screen reader. People just get it they Yeah, not all medically understand all of it, but their attitude and their thoughts about accessibility and, and how it should be prioritized changes when they really can see what real users experience. And I understand, you know, yes, you can YouTube some of those videos, but until you see it firsthand, or, or you’re trying to collaborate with someone on your team, that, you know, you need to make sure you’re sending an accessible PowerPoint to, or, you know, using a collaborative messaging tool, you sometimes don’t pick up on those things, or how important digital inclusion really is. So, my magic wand wish would be that everyone can have that empathy and awareness of the importance of digital inclusion. 

[Juan:] Thank you so much. Ben 

[Ben:] And I guess I would say, I mean, you know, speaking in like, biggest picture, I guess I would make it not necessary. You know, I would just like, I would just take away, you know, if the magic wand was that powerful, I would just take away all dis- all the disabilities, so it wasn’t necessary. Or I would take I should say, I would take away the societal problems that caused disability for the most part. But let’s, let’s pretend that’s not you know, we’re not speaking in that big word. We’re speaking more about accessibility in general, I would say I would wave that wand and make it not so cost prohibitive because a lot of this is so expensive, a lot of companies you know, that is where, that’s where their enthusiasm for accessibility and usability stops is when they realize how much it costs to remediate. And it is a, you know, it, it takes a lot of work. And, and, you know, people need to be paid for their work and paid what to, you know, what they deserve and what they’re worth for that work. So, it the cost, the cost does, does go up, and it does, and that can be prohibitive for, for some businesses that want to, you know, that really want to have these accessible products. But, you know, but can’t, but can’t quite afford it, because maybe they’re just there, maybe they’re a start-up, you know, maybe they’re, maybe they’re just not turning a lot of profit, and maybe they are looking for more customers, but can’t find them due to the accessibility issue, but then they then they don’t have enough capital to fix it as well. So, there’s a lot of and at the flip on the flip side, we can’t be, we can’t be doing this for free either or for peanuts, you know, we have to, we have to earn our keep here as well, and keep the lights on so to speak. So, you know, its money drives a lot of it. And that can be said for, for so many parts of the world, but it’s definitely relevant here as well. And evident in a lot of the, a lot of the assistive technology is very expensive, as well, for a full professional Jaws license, we’re talking, you know, over $1,000 and braille displays and things like that are very expensive. You know, as you get more specialized keyboards for people with motor control issues and things like that, those get more expensive, anything like that, really, you know, it costs so much more, because it’s supply and demand, you know, it’s like, you, you know, there’s, there’s not as much demand for it, and most, and a lot of these are very complicated pieces of technology. So, it’s going to cost more, of course, just, just because of production. And because, in comparison with other products being purchased, it’s a small, it’s a small customer base, and there’s no real getting around that. So, that would be my, that would be my, my magic trick there is to is to make everything affordable, and make it not cost prohibitive. But Phil wins with the empathy for sure. 


[Juan:] You actually Ben, both of you guys brought really good points, but Ben, I just want to,go back a little bit in terms of the cost that, um, entails trying to make something accessible and this is why we always try to ensure accessibility’s introduced early on within development life cycle to mitigate some of those costs and extra time. But, um, one of the things I wanted to, to, to go back and, and try to sort of piggyback in terms of your answer in terms of the cost, while it is expensive. I see a lot of times organizations trying to use silver bullet when it comes to overlays, and they do not understand what are overlays and how that they are promising to fix a website, but not really doing it. So I’m wondering if you have any thoughts in terms of overlays, especially since you’re a native screen reader, and you work with other people that use screen readers. I just wanted to get your point of view on that. 

[Ben:] Absolutely. and I’m glad you mentioned the overlays that kind of goes along with, that goes along with the automated testing and the, the, the separate versions of websites that we were talking about earlier. Um, overlays can only do so much, and I understand that they may be more of a cost effective solution as well as, using only automated testing would be, um, cuz you know, when, when you get the more people you have involved, the more it’s probably gonna cost, because you have to pay everyone for their time. I think that, that overlays solve some issues, but they also, you know create some issues that, that  might not be there otherwise. In trying to, in trying to make the site more accessible and more user friendly. Sometimes they actually, they actually do the opposite, you know, because it’s a program trying to do this and uh, and they can’t catch everything. So you may find that, that an overlay fixes an issue with, you know, with, with some check boxes, but then it may, um, it may create another issue where the go to checkout button, uh, moves off screen when you navigate to it. when you’re zoomed in or it may create an issue where the lots of websites contain these navigational links, you know, skip to content, and the heading structure. So you can jump to different parts of the page very easily with assistive technology. A lot of the overlays kind of disable those functions, that that would, that would work on, on the original website once the overlay is activated. Um, a lot of the time, those, those sort of things don’t work anymore and it’s not something that’s, you know, that’s coded in there on purpose, in, you know, they’re trying to do the exact opposite, but because it’s a program, and because there’s no, uh, there’s no user in there behind it, you know, saying this works doesn’t, uh, often times it creates more problems than it solves. 

 [Juan:] Completely agree with that, uh, with that I really want to thank you both, Phil and Ben for being part of, of our of our 101 Accessibility talk. I really thank you. And then I’m looking for, I’m looking forward to your presentation. 

[Ben:] And thank you, Juan.